Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. (1Timothy 1:15)
Just a quick question today - hoping for some feedback.
Jesus came into the world to save sinners - but from what do sinners need saving?
What was the Son of God doing on that cross?
In the Garden of Gethsemane; before Judas brought the mob and betrayed Him, Jesus prayed three times, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." (Matthew 26:36-46)
What was in the cup that Jesus did not want to drink if there was any other way?
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5 comments:
We are freed from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2) and delivered from this present evil world. (Gal 1:4) the cross did not save us from hell. If anything we are saved from ourselves.
The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) and Jesus died to save us from our sins. ["Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS according to the Scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3)] Thus He died to save us from the sins that result in DEATH.
No where in scripture do you find any statement that the wages of sin is eternal torment. If it were true that eternal torment was the just result of sin, then Jesus did NOT pay the price sufficient to save us from our sins and that would mean the penalty is yet unpaid. But the penalty for sin is DEATH and Jesus paid the death penalty to adequately atone for our sin. And He was resurrected from death as proof of God's power to conquer death.
I think we see in Jesus' prayer that the cup pass from Him, the humanity of Jesus and that He indeed had a will; but a will He subjected to the Father's will. His own will would have been to avoid the suffering and death, yet He did the will of the Father because He was subject to the Father's will always.
It's late for me so I will make just a couple of quick comments:
1. I can't help but wonder if there is anyone besides you and I reading these posts. The counter shows between 100-120 page views a week but are those all just click throughs? If so we can do this as we always have over lunch.
2. You said: "No where in scripture do you find any statement that the wages of sin is eternal torment." And you loaded this post with scripture references.
Is this a case of - the Bible is the final authority when it backs my position - or are we on the same page as far as the clash discussion goes?
This seems like a pretty dogmatic stance from a guy who has been claiming uncertainty ...from where I sit. [just saying] ;)
3. I don't have hell in mind as the main thing that Jesus saves us from, though as you know I think it is silly to ignore the biblical evidence in favor of this being a major part of it. More on this in a later post.
I know...im thinking the same things too...im surprised no one else has given feedback but maybe it's b/c people don't want to say or be perceived as saying something stupid; i was thinking that i would be the "yang to your ying" enough to get some other opinions.... i will lay low for awhile.
2nd... I used all the scripture references for your benefit, what good would it do to present historical and cultural facts to show how "silly" the traditional view of hell is when ultimately you don't recognize any of that over how the bible reads(which i obviously think is a mistake) so i used the biblical evidence (of which it it is hard to rebuttal often b/c it comes down to your list of scriptures verses mine) ; i would also feel very confident in using cultural and historical evidence along with Scriptures as a source to show or bring home the same point without compromising. So though it seems a dogmatic stance(this term seems to bother you?) it is not really; i am just staying on a level that you have to accept b/c those are the standards you set forth(the bible being the final authority)
3rd... the scriptures i used validate my point no? have i taken them out of context? am i missing so much more scripture that would contradict my point? if i did... it kinda proves my point about preaching , living and teaching about our understanding of the scriptures as the final authority... that can get messed up ....not that the bible is not the inspired word of God...that goes for you, that goes for me, that goes for all of us who want to suggest any doctrine is the right doctrine or those who so easily say the bible is the final authority on ALL things... It's the authority based on how you or a denomination interprets it as authoritative....it's not healthy to believe you have the gospel cornered.
P.s to clarify.... i never ever said i am uncertain about scripture.... I said i am LESS DOGMATIC about my understanding of the scriptures... i hope i don't have to explain this in further detail but i felt there is a big difference...anyways i love ya buddy and i enjoy our friendship and our conversations on and off cyberspace... i will lay low though...hopefully others will start to converse
Cheers
Jake
We're saved from (outer darkness) an eternity without God!
Hey Dan! I try to follow your blog when I can and love it...I wrote some big deep comment thing about this post but then it didn't take; ahhhh. Anyhow, SOOOOO many things that Jesus saves us from the list can go on and on. Thank God as where would we be without salvation!!??
Don't be discouraged; sometimes there are MANY clicks so people do view your page even if briefly or the whole thing...the ones that leave comments seem so few though who knows why?
Reaching souls is reaching souls.
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