Monday, November 23, 2009

The Clash


Sooner or later (probably sooner) if you go into any depth at all with the Christian faith you are going to run into Biblical doctrine that grinds against everything you have ever thought or felt to be right or wrong.

It's only a matter of time.

Perhaps the Bible will label as sin something which you are absolutely positive is no sin at all - or you may discover within its sacred pages attributes assigned to God which you are beyond certain cannot possibly be true of Him. Some may find the Bible to be defining the roles which they occupy in life (husband, wife, employer, employee, father, mother, friend, etc) in ways that are offensive to put it mildly.

"If that's what the Bible says a husband/wife is to be - then I reject the Bible"

If the Bible is rejected as the inspired Word of God we are left with a Christianity that is governed by nothing more than the thoughts and feelings of man. To rob the scriptures of authority is to place the man who believes in salvation by faith in Christ alone on equal footing with the man who believes in salvation by clicking together the heels of the ruby slippers 3 times while chanting, "There's no place like heaven, there's no place like heaven..."

There are two options available to us when the clash comes:

1. Read beyond what the text says forcing it to submit to pre-determined human understanding.

2. Yield positions of human arrogance and submit to hard truth.

It's a matter of Lordship.

They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.
Isaiah 29:13

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.
Proverbs 3:5-6




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5 comments:

Jake said...

Ok but the text does say: In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1tim 9-12)

i don't think the majority of congregation in NA follow what this text says...some human reason went into not following or embracing this text no?

Dan Cormie said...

You bring up an important point but one that comes further into the discussion. I am not advocating the abandonment of human reason in this post – merely seeking to establish the parameters of the discussion. Unless we can agree that the text is the final authority upon which sound doctrine is based, there is no point having the discussion. Religion becomes whatever the individual thinks or feels it should be and one point is no more valid than another.

Once we have agreed that the text is the foundation upon which our beliefs will be based (i.e. -We will yield to it when the clash comes.) we can discuss the hard issues, such as the women issue you raise, or eternal security, free will, eschatological theories, church government, and the like. Within that arena we may arrive at different conclusions but each will of necessity make their case from scripture.

If there is any interest (Posted comments) I will address the women in leadership issue Jake raises in a future post.

Jake said...

There are two options available to us when the clash comes:

1. Read beyond what the text says forcing it to submit to pre-determined human understanding.

2. Yield positions of human arrogance and submit to hard truth.

It's a matter of Lordship.

I was referring the scripture to the above test here...and my point is that based on the above options you have to read beyond what the text says in order to gain a complete understanding of WHY we don't follow something that SEEMS very straight forward and Succinct (1 tim 9-12) otherwise we would be picking and choosing what best fits us.

I think I understand but one caveat here .... Personally speaking i have been in the past the first to source the bible as the ultimate authority on ALL issues and i have meant it with all sincerity... I don't think the problem is that the Scriptures are not inspired i think the problem is that my understanding of the scriptures has always been the culprit at times... based on how well i seemed to misunderstand the scripture in the past, i am very hesitant to be too dogmatic about my understanding of the scriptures today.... one may say; well that can be true but there are some things that are said that just don't need interpretation... but as a rule(to me), i think that is or can be lazy. And at the same time you could swing the pendulum all the way to the other side and complain: well nothing is knowable then, and everything is a mystery beyond reach.... it would be prudent not to think that way either. Perhaps if you are a cautious type than operating on how a text reads may be the safest way to go, I just think it's a hit and miss approach and the crux on your understanding of scripture at that time.

Dan Cormie said...

"based on how well i seemed to misunderstand the scripture in the past, i am very hesitant to be too dogmatic about my understanding of the scriptures today"

Yes I could for sure say the same thing but - without being dogmatic - we still have to hold to the scriptures as the final authority. We can't just say well this feels right even though half the Bible clearly contradicts it. The positions you hold to now (Less dogmatically than former views) are no doubt still based on biblical understanding - once you go off the map on that there is no basis for further discussion.

Jake said...

Maybe you have an example in your mind of such a case but there are things in life that the bible just does not touch on and we have to move on what feels right...i could list example's if you would like but i know in past conversations you have confirmed this with me.... i guess it makes a difference if it is matters of doctrine,matters of situations in life? i am NOT trying to take anything away from the bible.... im really not... But at times i have to agree with Rob
Bell that we can make an idol of the bible and worship it rather than God; like it is impossible to be saved without the bible.(now resist the urge to move in your mind to an extreme here... i do say this cautiously)Im not raging against John 1:1 or anything like that, im just observing on some people who read it and what they do with it i guess...ah but i digress i shall stop now, i receive the nature in which you post.

Cheers

Jake